I was reading on Erica’s blog her thoughts about Tops and Bottoms, about switching and not wanting to watch male Bottoms get spanked. The discussion got a bit heated and I found that fascinating because even as I was reading what Eric wrote I found myself feeling very strongly on the subject. I was just like the few others who got a bit tense. Most people behaved well, only a couple got tetchy, and I was well behaved. But it took effort for me to do that. I went from totally calm to all tense and jumpy, and that reaction fascinates me.
We were not talking about abuse or injustice (and in fact those topics make me calm because I believe calm is the only thing that helps victims of those things) only about a variation on TTWD. So why was I so uptight?
I know we all have our own preferences and there is no reason why this aspect of our lives should be any different. I think no matter what our likes and dislikes are, when we express them some people feel hurt and judged, and that is in no way my intention here. I will write what I feel about different ways of doing TTWD and I worry that this may hurt some people but that is in no way my intention. I have worked hard to express myself here in a way that will not cause unhappiness to others. By writing this, I am trying to work out why these feelings are so strong.
I don’t understand switching. (Not the use of a switch which I think is just mean and horrid but rather the swapping from Top to bottom and back again.) I think switching is neither right nor wrong, but a way of doing and being that I find it hard to understand. I think that may be because for me being spanked and told off is a way I live, and I need to see the Top in my life as being in charge of me. We have an intense relationship. I don’t want to think of him being spanked because that would reduce my trust in him. Is that silly? I don’t think so because I want to look up to him all the time. I don’t think he is perfect and I know he makes mistakes, but I do not want him to be accountable like I am accountable. The thought of him being told off, let alone the physical aspect of it, makes me shudder and turns me off utterly. I do not know why that is but I feel it deeply.
It does occur to me that switching is quite a natural way for a couple to be. Sometimes the husband is in the right and sometimes the wife, that is the normal pattern of things. But still I find the subject causes me stress and makes me more uptight than it should.
If my lover switched I would hate it for many reasons. I think I would feel too far below the bottom of the pile. I do not want to be a bottom’s bottom. I feel too emotional about it. I like the linear structure of the relationship. I like the faux traditionalism, the “father knows best” aspect of it. I like that he is stronger than I am and taller. I like that he always wins; that gives me tremendous comfort, and the idea of losing that makes me feel sad.
I can see how switching may work for people at parties. (“So I got caned by him and then I thought I would try it so I caned her.”) I also think there are people who live full time as switches and this makes them happy and relaxed, just as the way I live makes me happy and relaxed. I do not understand that for a moment. I also do not understand how light splits up into infra red and ultra violet. It goes on happening though.
I know all of this, so why does the idea of switching bring up such a strong response for me? Part of this must be to do with empathy. I cannot help but put myself in the part. Am I expected to switch or to be topped by a switch? Of course not, but the feeling of that pressure does lead to a feeling of anxiousness.
That may be increased by the way I am within TTWD. I am still new at it and the way that TTWD manifests itself in me is that my feeling of being new, innocent (ironic, huh?) and open is increased. I love the change I feel but it means that I am very affected by new things and new ways of being. Simply my being a bottom and open to the leadership of Himself I am more affected by what I hear about others. It is part of my way of living that makes other people’s ways feel like a threat sometimes.
As for male bottoms, the thought does not float my boat at all. I find men attractive when they are in charge and assertive, and I used to struggle with the idea of men wanting to be spanked. It was only when I read this and this by Prefectdt that I could understand it at all. I know there are lots of men in the world and that men who wish to be spanked will not all be like Prefectdt, but in my head they will, and that means I can understand and be more relaxed around them. I know if I tried to be all Toppy with Prefectdt he would tell me to get over myself. That makes things terribly easy with him, and learning that helped me to understand something about my approach to male bottoms.
I used to (wrongly) see them as wanting to be like girls in this but I do not think that is the case. They are men, still men who want to be spanked. They are still men, still a wide variation of men and not someone who expects me to see them as just like me. We can be different still. I do not know why that matters to me but it does.
Except I have met in the past some male bottoms who would bounce up to me without introduction and want to tell me all about their last spanking and what their bum looks like. I found this to be invasive, a horrid parody of what they thought was female bonding and a kind of pervy invasion. It was too much and it mean that when I wanted to be safe and relaxed I had to toughen up and assert myself. I lost my place to be calm and happy.
But reading Prefectdt (who is not like that even a little bit) has reduced that memory. I am still anxious around male bottoms but not so much.
In the same way, Our Bottoms Burn make sense to me. They switch, which I could never do, but conduct themselves with decorum everywhere that I have read them. This makes it easy to read about them and to engage with them. I feel I can still be me while they are being them.
It is some other switches and male bottoms I have encountered expect me to be part of their lifestyle choice, and for me that causes tension. I have encountered switches who expect me to relate to them as though he or she is my Top, and male bottoms who expect me to be all Toppy around them. I just can’t fulfill these roles, and that expectation makes me anxious. I think I have the same feelings towards male Tops who try to boss me around with no relationship already established.
I think that sums it up for me. I need very much to explore the submissive part of myself in a way that makes me happy and relaxed. I choose to do this with a male Top and in an exclusive relationship. I require space from others to do this. If I read something that turns me off then that is my problem, and I should click away from the site. But if someone chooses to engage with me then he or she cannot expect me to become part of his or her dynamic unless that suits me.
I do know that if I am expected to be part of someone else’s role play I get tense and it annoys me. I like it when there are proper Toppy men around who speak to me in a proper Toppy way, and by that I mean they conduct themselves with dignity and decorum and have that manly thing going on. I do not like it if someone strolls in and starts speaking to me as though I need telling off or, even worse, down to me.
Most of us have such strong feelings on these topics. I am starting to understand what it is that pushes my buttons and why I feel so strongly. What has surprised me very much about the journey I have undertaken is how many good people there are. I was scared to start a blog because I thought not only would I have nothing to say, and also that I would lay myself open to aggressive, nasty people, but almost every person I have met has proven to be a delight, no matter what his or her chosen role.
PS: I have just been reading about that poor couple that got bashed by all the DD haters. I then, quite stupidly, went and read a bit more. I found a site where people were talking about it and read for about three minutes and it made me feel sick. Those people were convinced that any womna in this life style is an absolute victim and abused and deluded. I am trying now to forget what I read and I know I will get told off a bit for reading something that upset me. We have to be kind to one another. That’s all.
I think I know what you mean, Poppy.
My preference for LDD is very restricted, very narrow. Many things freak me out, and even if I approve them and understand them, I still don´t feel good while occasionally reading about them.
I don´t feel like switching either. I could play a dominant role, but it would be just acting. I might slap Egres´s bum every now and then, but it´s just bratting, asking for attention
The whole LDD-thing for me is very romanticized. It´s escapism for me who has an education for a manly occupation and who has a lot of responsibilities. I want to increase the differences between sexes in my relationship. Like you said, Poppy, “I like that he is stronger than I am and taller. I like that he always wins; that gives me tremendous comfort, and the idea of losing that makes me feel sad.” I want to feel feminine, girly, sensual, fragile…
But people judging DD-people? That´s so pathetic and makes me angry.
X
Maria
We are so similer, aren’t we?
It is easy to be freaked out by something that is not us but as you say, we can still approve and agree.
Yes, we are very similar
I´m afraid of saying it! I don´t want that I sound like a stalker fan
This thing is important to us. We don´t want anything to break the image of the world we just built for us as a sanctuary.
M
You could never sound like a stalker.
I love what you said, “We don´t want anything to break the image of the world we just built for us as a sanctuary. “
Some serious points there that have put a big stirring spoon in the old grey matter. I have been sitting here trying to write some thoughts that I have on the subject of switching but it is one of those days when my literacy condition is kicking in a bit bad and I just cannot get my thoughts to come across correctly in the written word. I hope that you don’t mind if I leave it until a better day. This post might be a few days old by then but it is something that I want to say right or not at all.
Prefectdt
Poppy, a well thought out and understandable post.
I find it hard to understand people who draw a line and say beyond this line, everything is unacceptable. or abusive or perverted.
Anything, short of severe mutilation or serious bodily harm, done between consenting
adults is alright with me, even though some things people get up to, totally turn me off,
I may stop reading, but I try not to judge.
I will not, maybe that should be, cannot switch, I well remember being on the receiving end of the more traditional implements of discipline, completely non consensual.
On mature consideration the people running the home were twenty-four karat sadists.
I think that I understand your stance, you and Himself have built a world where you are both comfortable, no-one has the right to judge you or indeed disapprove.
Make the most of this week-end.
Love and warm hugs,
Paul.
Thank you, Prefectdt. I emailed you and left a comment on your blog (feel free to delete that once you have read it). I hope I have not offended you and I will make it right if I have. I really intended the opposite of offence.
Paul, I am sorry to read about the horrible sadists in your past. How unfair the world can be for some children. I don’t mind people disapproving, I just don’t want to know. I don’t want to feel bad. I don’t want other people to feel bad. Like you said, adults that consent- that is key.
First, thanks for the kind words.
You wrote “I do not want him to be accountable like I am accountable” There is not a hint of accountability in our mutual spanking activities. Discipline is just not a part of it for us. That’s a big difference and the reason that you and Erica and a few million other women recoil when asked to top a male bottom.
If you ever met a man who was not into discipline and punishment perhaps you could spank him and enjoy doing it. I think these men are rare.
For us, it all sensual.
Poppy, I know this was a tough post to write, and on no other post I can recall did you ever spend so much time and effort, but you needed to deal with this issue. I’m very proud that you did.
B & B, thank you for explaining the non-accountability. I think I have read about the Spencer Plan and assumed many switches worked along those lines. I do understand that lots of spanking couples have nothing to do with punishment or accountability, I think lots and lots of people have spanking relationships like that. But I really do not think I could ever spank a man, no matter how sensual. It is just the way I am built. To me spanking someone, no matter if it is sensual or punishment is topping and I can’t do that.
I think that is interesting though. I think I understand something that I did not before. Some people see spanking as not necessarily as without implications of any sort of in chargeness activity (Top is too blunt a word), rather as more a sensual exprience. So they can say, “You could spank me.” and not mean that as a suggestion that the person has to take control. They don’t see for me that means putting me in an uncomfortable position. And I did not see how they could suggest that about me.
Semantics matter.
Thank you, Dev. Thank you for all your help on this and everything.
Poppy, your thinking out loud made me some ideas, too. I might blog about it one day when I´ll have enough time for that
I´m happy you don´t find me stalkerish
Because I´m not 
XXX
Maria
Maria’s “sanctuary” comment speaks for me, too. Dear Poppy, thanks so much for writing this, in just this way.
Maria, you should write about it and use your sanctuary comment because Lorraine and I both adore it.
Thank you for reading it, Lorraine. I am so glad that it struck a chord with other people. I was worried it would have made no sense or made the wrong sense.
Maybe I will… After Egres´s tonight´s entry
I´m happy you like what I said, Poppy and Lorraine *Blush*.
I will look forward to it.
I think I feel much the same way as you do, Poppy. I also wouldn’t like “my” top to switch… I wouldn’t switch with him myself because I’m just not a top – either with males or females, it’s just not me. So for *him* to switch, he would have to bottom to some other person, which is part of the reason it would bother me. For me personally, I tend to develop an incredibly powerful bond with the person who spanks me, and the thought of him creating that bond with someone other than me would hurt me. Which may well be unreasonable on so many levels – I don’t mind him playing as a top with others, for example, and so on and so forth, but in my head it’s just not the same. Possibly because, truthfully, I don’t understand the desire to top anyone, so can’t truly empathise with the emotional connection *he* feels so don’t mind sharing it… But back to the point, my kink is males spanking females. I’m no more interested in males switching, etc, than I am in foot fetishes or anything else. By all means, other people are more than entitled to like it, but I just don’t.
Anyway, I have a lot to say (obviously) and am not doing it particularly well so if you don’t mind, I’m going to go away and think about it and post a (hopefully!) more eloquent summary of my thoughts on my blog
Thanks for giving me something to think about!
Poppy
this is so perfect. I am in awe every time I read something you write. You are very talented. And Maria, this sums me up so perfectly:
“It´s escapism for me who has an education for a manly occupation and who has a lot of responsibilities. I want to increase the differences between sexes in my relationship. Like you said, Poppy, “I like that he is stronger than I am and taller. I like that he always wins; that gives me tremendous comfort, and the idea of losing that makes me feel sad.” I want to feel feminine, girly, sensual, fragile…”
Every time I read here, I have thoughts about so many things I want to write about — I think I need a writing vacation — where no one can interrupt or make any demands on me for just a little while . . . . a girl can dream, right?
Viola, I am not sure that “reasonable” comes into it. I think as you say it is what we are, we have tastes which lead us to choices and if we did not and had no filter for our sexual choices then can you imagine what would happen?
Thanks for reading and hello!
Arianna, you have given me an idea all about the writer’s retreat. I am flattered by what you say and you know that I adore your writing too. I will email when I gather my thoughts.
A little note about the guys who insist on telling you about their last spankings. I was not in the situations that you are talking about and so could be getting this wrong but it could just be that these guys were just trying to reassure you that they have played recently. Not playing for an extended period of time can lead to a lot of mental and emotional instability for many male subs and bottoms (it has in the past for me) and I for one would not want to be around a guy who has been a bit short on play recently. If I where to meet you I would try not to be too “in your face” about it but I would try to drop a little hint of when I last played into the conversation. This has nothing to do with an attempt at bonding or anything like that but is just a reassurance that I am not likely to start clucking like a chicken or blowing up in an unexplained rage (a bit of an exaggeration but not far from what can happen with a sub/bottom guy, who is not getting enough play).
Switching – I have not switched for a long long time but I have fond memories of doing this. I get no joy or thrill from topping and would rather find a Top who does not wish to switch but there have been times in the past (it especially seemed to be a problem back in the UK , in the 1980s) when Tops and Dommes where thin on the ground and if you were not prepared to switch then the chances of getting play were slim. These were not ideal play sessions but they did have the benefit of being “pressure off” scenarios and both parties could just play without worrying about things that they did not want, like sex or relationships, butting in on the fun. I do not think that I have put that point too well but I hope that you get the gist of it.
Prefectdt
I say again, I wish everyone was like you. The guys I have met (online and in forums – not in private online) were not into subtle hints. I think I have just met people who were a bit odd and that had nothing to do with being Tops or bottoms or anything. I understand what you say about dropping a hint about playing recently. That makes perfect sense and meeting someone who said something along those lines would be a pleasure.
Switching does make sense, whether it is to fill a gap or because that is how one lives. I had never considered in the way that you said it but I can see how that works for all concerned and is just an example of people helping the world to go around.
I love the way you put this, Poppy: “I like the faux traditionalism, the “father knows best” aspect of it.” Personally speaking, I’ve always argued that M/F is the primary theme, and the natural order of things in the spanking cosmos, but I know that assertion has gotten me kicked out of one online discussion forum. People can be touchy sometimes when you don’t agree with them.
That said, I remain a big fan of Alison Tyler’s temporarily (I hope) lost erotic spanking memoirs, which were primarily — but certainly not exclusively — M/F.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment, Prefect. I also learned something I didn’t know. Your points are in fact well made, and I appreciate your sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Hi, Karl!
Hi, Karl. I am really glad you like it. I am worried about thinking I know the order of the cosmos because I find once I am sure of something it comes back to bite me in the bum. And also some men would be awful Tops (addicts, violent people) and some women would feel like they were drowning if they had someone in charge of them. I am not sure there is a natural order but I know there is one for me and the way that I live.
Poppy, I’d never suggest that the social form of tops and submissives is the way for everyone. Thank you for helping clarify this. Certainly, as you point out not that many present-day men are suited for the role of “top”, and there are likely many present-day women who would not be comfortable allowing themselves to enter into a submissive relationship in the way we think of it. Now, I don’t want to make any value judgements about any of the above. What I had intended to express is my view that within the spanking subculture, the M/F constellation is the primary archetype. That’s always seemed like a self-evident axiom to me, but I’m open to hearing other perspectives.
Not at all, Karl. I was just chatting with you and enjoying the banter.
I don’t know about the M/F way as being the archetype- it is the way that suits me and many of the people I speak with. I am just wary as mixing it up with social and political history. I am just not sure of my onions. I like that you are though.
Poppy, I’m just happening upon this post, as I’m catching up after being offline for three days. Since I already covered my end of this, I will simply say you did a wonderful job with this tricky topic and I applaud you!
You inspired me! So thank you and I applaud you right back!
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Hi Poppy,
this is a very interesting discussion! I think in some ways I’m ticking quite similar as you do and in some I’m very different.
I can absolutely relate to your problems with people who expect you to behave in a certain way around them (toppy or submissive) just because they consider themselves a top or bottom. I’m in an exclusive relationship with my partner Ludwig (except for the matter of making video clips from time to time), so I don’t want others to make me part of their role play without my permission. Talking about kink is perfectly okay for me, as long as I know that I’m not expected to engage in any kind of play.
We are obviously very different concerning our fantasies and the spanking constellations we like, though. I’m a bottom and I started to explore my kink about 1 1/2 years ago. But from the beginning I assumed that there might be something else as well. A few weeks ago I made my first experience with topping (with my partner Ludwig on the receiving end) and for me it was a great experience.
Now, first of all, Ludwig and I don’t live in any kind of DD relationship. I always wanted a partner who is eye-to-eye, I wasn’t looking for someone who would look after me, just someone who wanted mutual care. Luckily, Ludwig was looking for an equal partner, too. Of course he holds me tight when I’m sad and he cares for me, but I do the same for him and it doesn’t mean that I’m constantly looking up to him (I often look up to him because he has some abilities I don’t have, but I think it’s the same vice versa). What made me look up to him when we played for the first time, though, was the fact that, despite of being a top, Ludwig had made several experiences as a bottom in order to find out how a spanking feels like. I’m not talking about submissive experiences, I’m talking about severe spankings to see how it feels and to learn more about the bottom side. I’m very much into heroine scenarios and the fact that Ludwig had taken even harder spankings than the ones he dishes out, made me feel like he was very experienced, safe to play with and that he had the “right” to dish out spankings like that because he knew what it meant. I don’t know whether this makes any sense to you, but this is how I am wired. Ludwig doesn’t switch very often and that is completely okay for me. But the fact that he had done it was very important for me when we started to play. As a matter of fact I think I would have a problem to submit to a spanking (at least a severe one) from someone who hasn’t experienced it him- or herself.
Ludwig had lost a football bet long before we met and we decided that I should take part in the resulting clip with him as a bottom. So I flogged him together with Leia-Ann Woods. Ludwig had never done a scene with two tops and was interested to see how it feels like. It turned out to be a great experience for me! I obviously have a top side (I think especially concerning scenes in film clips), although I still believe that in our relationship I’m going to remain 95 per cent bottom. And I have even more respect for Ludwig now, because he showed the reactions I’m longing for in my “herione” fantasies as well. He was very brave and took the spanking with a lot of dignity. That was wonderful to watch and made him a role model for me once again.
Hmm, I don’t know whether this makes any sense to you, but I just wanted to write my thoughts down in order to show how different fantasies and relationships can be. And I think it’s wonderful that there’s so much variety in our scene! By the way, concerning videos my favourite constellation is M/M. Again something where my taste differs from those of many others…
Hi, Kaelah,
What a fascinating comment.
Everything you wrote makes perfect sense to me. I like that people are so different and like very much to understand their motivations and expiriences. I think that your relationship with Ludwig, although very different to my relationship with Himself, sounds loving, deep, enriching and erotic.
For you, the fact that the man you love and (95% of the time submit to) has been spanked allows you to have a closer and more meaningful relationship. For me, the fact that the man I love is always in charge makes it work for us.
Like you, I love the variety.
I really appreciate you taking the time to comment. I am flattered that you made the effort to express these thoughts.
Poppy, I’m glad that my comment made sense to you! It’s indeed great to see how different relationships can be. And despite the differences they work for the partners involved. I think that is because they are all based upon love, care and erotics. To my mind the important factors are that the basic needs of the partners involved fit together and that the partners are willing to talk a lot to each other and to find compromises where their needs are different (to my mind there usually isn’t a 100 per cent match). And it sounds like this is true for your relationship with Devlin as well as it is true for my relationship with Ludwig.